przed | ci5hq Resignation

ci5hq Resignation

Those of you not in Pros fandom can safely ignore this.

To those of you in Pros, I am, reluctantly, resigning as co-mod of

ci5hq. (I would have done this days ago, but for the fact that I've been sick as a dog since Thursday.)

In part, this is because as the mom of a rapidly growing little girl with increasing personal and professional demands on my energy, I've been realizing I have less time than ever to devote to fannish pursuits. I need only to work on things that bring me joy, and increasingly that is not

ci5hq.

Primarily, however, this comes down my now former co-mod's decision to move to using

prosficspoilers for warnings on the community. I have two main issues with this choice.

First is the fact that in spite of her much vaunted respect for other fans,

byslantedlight did not show the same respect to me, and made this change without either consulting whether I agreed with this decision or even informing me of this change in policy on the comm. I am similarly making my decision without consulting her.

Second is the fact that I most emphatically do not agree with this change. Forcing users of the comm to post warnings and spoilers to a separate community is unworkable and onerous. Unworkable, because in spite of the mod's assertion to the contrary, providing only a link to the

prosficspoilers comm in the original posting will mean that the specific warnings for that story will swiftly become lost in the spoilers community. Onerous, because to make it all workable the original poster will have to create their own post in the spoiler comm, then link back to it, a layer of effort that seems to me completely unnecessary when simply putting a warning at the end of the story or posting, under a cut would seem to meet the requirements of most members of the community. Creating this new layer seems to add no value except perhaps sparing the sensibilities of the very few (2 out of 35 respondents on a poll

byslantedlight conducted herself) who are offended by the very existence of warnings. And I say that as someone who doesn't feel the need for warnings herself, but can respect that others do.

That it has come to me making this decision saddens me, because in large part I helped create

ci5hq in response to the arbitrary, draconian, and inconsistently applied posting rules of the former mod of

the_safehouse. To see similarly arbitrary rules on a community I helped create causes me great dismay, and I cannot any longer remain as a mod.

I will also not be posting on any other comm that has this policy, which means I will no longer be posting on

the_safehouse.

Increasingly it has become clear to me that the only truly friendly LJ comm in Pros fandom is

teaandswissroll. The mods there are welcoming to all Pros fans, and do not impose arbitrary, unworkable, or unnecessary rules.

teaandswissroll is definitely becoming my de facto home base for Pros on LJ.

I have made a number of friends in Pros fandom. I hope I will continue to be friends with many of you. But if any of you feel you need to remove me from your flist in light of this decision, I completely understand.

Take care everyone.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

I have been considering posting a rant on my personal LJ about the whole spoilers shenanigans, but haven't yet done so. I'm glad to see I'm not the only one that thinks this whole "comm for spoilers"... *my vocab fails to provide me with a noun that is not derogatory* stuff... is an unnecessary PITA. You've summed up the situation rather concisely and politely, and I'm quite proud of you.

I'm not currently writing fic in any fandom at the moment, but believe me when I say that if I should take up writing for Pros again, I shan't be posting anyplace that makes me jump through hoops found nowhere else on teh Intarwebs, much less on any other LJ ficcing comm.

And you're quiet right that

teaandswissroll is an island of welcoming fun in a fandom that has otherwise been taken over by a few terribly overstuffed shirts.

QUITE right. Not quiet. Although I think the situation calls for a bit of a quiet riot.

Don't drink and comment, kiddies.

Brava.

Good for you. It's unfortunate that you feel forced to this, but you were certainly graceful in doing so.

Now 'scuse me, but I have a new Pros comm to join.

I don't blame you for resigning from your duties as co-mod. Besides the fact that the whole creation of a community for spoilers is silly, you should have been consulted before any changes were made.

I have a new community now, and have left a community.

I'm certainly sorry to hear this. It's clear you've given it careful thought, but it's always a shame when we lose the moderate voices.

I agree that the new policy seems to guarantee the demise of any kind of warnings. I'd imagined that the poll indicated the community was more closely divided than it is.

I've been very remiss in not checking out teaandswissroll sooner. Maybe one good thing to come out of this will be a boost in membership to a new and thriving Pros community.

*massive hugs* I really hate to see you distressed. *more hugs*

I'm so sorry you feel as if you need to do this, hon. I realize I'm probably not the best person to chime in with an opinion, as I haven't written anything in Pros recently, but the whole spoiler protocol conversation hasn't made a lick of sense to me. If I ever were to write again in the fandom, I don't imagine I would go through all the double posting/linking mishegas. I'd simply keep the story on my LJ and on Tea and Swiss Roll.

Oh well! At least we have BB to look forward to, right?

Chin up!

You know, there aren't many people in fandom who are more opposed to spoiler warnings and the utter stupidity of most of the rules out there in communities, but this kind of gobsmacking. I... a separate community for posting warnings and spoilers of fic in the original community? Crazy talk.

I always loved how Beth handled the warnings in her zines -- printed upside down on the last page. Too bad we don't have that on the net.

As a matter of fact that was the previous spoilers policy at CI5hq - except for the upside down part. We used trailers under a cut instead of headers - and there were constant complaints about that policy too. There's no winning, unfortunately.

So...the fics posted to ci5hq won't contain warnings, but instead a link to a separate comm -- just the comm, not a post on the comm -- where further info on the story may be found? And then, if the author or some enterprising other soul wants to, they can make a post to the spoilers comm with warnings for that story and readers can go to that comm and find the story title and click to see the warnings/spoilers?

That's...that's just really, really strange.

Regardless, I'm awfully sorry you're having to do this. :(

No bones about it, this post choked me up a little. I am so sorry that it has come to this for you, but I get it. I really do. I too don't like the way this whole warnings/spoilers/new comm issue has suddenly popped up as 'must do' rules for two of the main Pros sites. And as co-mod for the first time ever, I cannot imagine making such an important change to the policy of a comm without consulting my fellow mod first.

Presumably this change will also pop up as a rule for

discoveredinalj in the near future - though why I don't know. Dialj already has an excellent and simple policy regarding story details, etc, as in going behind a cut, with any details or spoilers placed at the end of the story for those who would like to see them before they read. I had foolishly assumed that this all might end up as something optional for writers when they post a story, but apparently not.

So yeah, I think my LJ, and

teaandswissroll will be the way to go in future for my stories - oh, and a certain

ci5_boxoftricks of course!

I had foolishly assumed that this all might end up as something optional for writers when they post a story, but apparently not
It is indeed optional - where are you getting the idea that it isn't?

And as co-mod for the first time ever, I cannot imagine making such an important change to the policy of a comm without consulting my fellow mod first.
As I've reminded her below, P had previously said she was happy for me to make decisions about the comm without consulting her except on major issues - while the spoiler policy could be considered a "major issue", the fact that she hadn't taken part in any of the discussions or posts about it made me feel that she in fact didn't consider it a major issue. This is the first time I've heard her opinion on the subject, and the first time I've had any impression that she's been unhappy with anything I've done at the comm.

I had foolishly assumed that this all might end up as something optional for writers when they post a story, but apparently not
It is indeed optional - where are you getting the idea that it isn't?

From the user info pages to

the_safehouse and

ci5hq. Maybe it's me being dense, but the wording here doesn't make it sound optional to me:

For posting new stories please post any warnings or spoiler information to prosficspoilers - our header will then automatically link to that information.

28th May - New Spoilers/Warnings/Story Information policy - ci5hq is now working in conjunction with prosficspoilers. In order to satisfy as many people as possible, please do not post warnings/spoilers etc to headers at this comm - instead simply use the header above which will automatically link to prosficspoilers and allow readers to find the spoiler information that they require.

Ah, I've just replied to this below (or above?), so you'll get another notification with my comment in it!

Well I could have needed some help days ago!
I was fighting for any kind of timely warnings and at the end I was tired of it and Prosficspoilers was at least... Well... of course such a Spoiler comm is nonsense! But if you take a look at it you see, that it could be an 'information' comm.

You knew what was going on.
A 'moderate voice', as Josh said, would have been helpful.

At the moment it looks like Pros is splitting up.
Maybe we should try to find a solution - together!

Edited 2010-06-08 06:30 (UTC)

You knew what was going on.
A 'moderate voice', as Josh said, would have been helpful As

przed pointed out in her post, she's been sick - still is - works full time and has an energiser bunny to raise - her time for fandom is her own, precious, and limited.

Not all of us want to use up our fannish time and energy to fight.

"Not all of us want to use up our fannish time and energy to fight."
Nobody wants!

As [info]przed pointed out in her post, she's been sick - still is - works full time and has an energiser bunny to raise
Just to clarify,

przed has not been actively involved in the modding of CI5hq since its inception, except for putting her name to the comm. She eventually asked me to stop emailing her for her opinion about changes to the comm - further explanation about that in other replies I've made - and so I did. The idea that she has recently been too busy to be involved with the comm is a little misleading - apart from the odd rec she never has been actively involved in the comm, much as I would have liked her to be.

And "moderate voices" would have been more than welcome at any of the posts to which I've linked elsewhere, discussing spoilers in general or the recent policy - although the definition of "moderate voice" is of course subjective.

The discussion that firle is referring to here, is the one about spoilers/warnings, etc. I wasn't particulary referring to

przed's respnsibilites as a mod of ci5hq, and I don't think firle was either. Just as a participant in that particular thread and discussion.

We have not had much contact as I am quite new to Pros fandom. However I wish to say in defence of

byslantedlight that there was very strong pressure from some members of CI5hq to offer warnings or spoilers in some form for fics recced there, and equally strong feelings from those who did not wish to be spoiled. The decision to create a 'spoiler comm' seemed the best compromise after much hard thought and discussion.

Forcing users of the comm to post warnings and spoilers to a separate community is unworkable and onerous No one is 'forced' to do this, it is a matter of choice for the author, the mod of the new comm, or anyone who feels inclined to post 'story information' there.

For posting new stories please post any warnings or spoiler information to prosficspoilers - our header will then automatically link to that information. From

the_safehouse user info page.

28th May - New Spoilers/Warnings/Story Information policy - ci5hq is now working in conjunction with prosficspoilers. In order to satisfy as many people as possible, please do not post warnings/spoilers etc to headers at this comm - instead simply use the header above which will automatically link to prosficspoilers and allow readers to find the spoiler information that they require. From

ci5hq user info page.

These both sound like rules and not options to me. But hey, not everyone has to post everything everywhere. And as I said in the spoiler discussion thread, I don't see the springing up of new comms as a terrible fracturing/splitting or diluting of Pros as others seem to. Even a fandom as small as ours is going to have to cater for different tastes and different ways of doing things in order to stay alive and healthy. The problem comes when we all feel that we have to conform and play in one particular sandbox in order to keep it going.

Rules
In keeping with the laid back views of your moderators, we don't want to have hard and fast rules. We do, however, have a few suggestions:
Flames are bad. While you may not agree with everything you read on ci5hq, please show respect for the opinions of other posters and commenters, and keep discussion civil.
Posts and comments should be about some aspect of Pros.
If you're posting about a story, whether rec or new fic, it would be helpful if you could use this header at the top of your post:
Title:
Author:
Link to story or zine/ProsLib info:
Pairing:
Further story information found at <*lj comm="prosficspoilers"*> (delete asterisks for code to work)
Short review: (1 to 3 sentences) If you want to include a longer critical discussion of a story, or a whole zine, please put it behind an <*lj-cut*> tag.

Bold emphasis mine for this comment - as stated in the user info, there are no compulsory rules, and we've asked people to please post the header, not tried to say that they must (I note that the policy for spoilers is compulsory at T&SR, however)

And as you say, if people don't like the way one comm works, they can indeed post somewhere else instead - that's how

ci5hq came to be in the first place, as P says in her post above.

I note that the policy for spoilers is compulsory at T&SR, however Maybe, but it does not involve posting and linking to another comm to do it..

You don't have to post to another comm at CI5hq either, if that's what's worrying you! It looks like that wasn't clear enough in the original posts/discussions proposing the new policy (I think we missed your opinions on the idea, there?) There's absolutely no onus on an author to post to Prosficspoilers - the onus is on the people who want spoilers to arrange them, and Firle (the mod) has said that she's happy to post them to her comm for people to see. I'm sure she'd like help, if you're a supporter of spoilers!

People who don't like spoilers don't have to do anything, at any point, whether they're authors or readers. People who want spoilers simply click twice - once on the comm link, and once in the tags list on the title of the story they're looking for. It seemed easier than asking people to learn html code for blacking/whiting out spoiler information, particularly as people have complained as well about our use of trailers rather than headers. All we can do is try to compromise to keep people happy - and I did ask for comments and opinions on the workability of this in posts at CI5hq. There was very little response and I don't think any was against the idea - so I was under the impression that people were happy enough to try it. I can't read minds, unfortunately - if people have strong opinions, or worry that something's unworkable, they need to tell me so! There were four recent posts about this (links in my comment to przed), and very few of the people who've commented here participated in the discussion about the policy, which is a shame if they have such strong feelings.

I think we missed your opinions on the idea, there? Am I supposed to feel guilty about that now?? Sorry, I don't. I don't have to give my opinon at any given time. I can express it whenever I feel it strongly - and I was more interested in the perceived 'splitting' of Pros at that time.

Now upon learning of

przed's resignation and why, and seeing it pop up as rules on the user info pages, I feel it strongly.

If it *is* optional, then I would suggest you consider making it clearer on those user info pages.

No, of course you're not supposed to feel guilty about it - I'm just sorry that such strong opinions as I'm seeing here weren't expressed when discussion was requested.

Wording is a funny thing - people often read what they think they should read, rather than what's actually there. "Suggestion" and "would be helpful if" mean exactly what they say they mean, and were always intended to...

I just recently saw the changes to

the_safehouse and left the community I have been a member of for years because of the change. I am pro warnings, but respect that others do not share my views. I, however, agree with

przed that making an author or reader jump through another step to read warning/spoiler labels on another community is not for me.

I run communities, I understand you cannot please all members but currently I find the best way to appease both sides in the warnings debate has been to put warnings behide a cut or under a highlight in the story notes. This way if you don't like to be spoiled, you don't click the cut/highlight. And if like me you want to be warned for rape (the only thing I want a warning for), you click on that and check it out. I thought that compromise was working fine on

the_safehouse, sad to see the policy changed.

I'm not sure how clicking a mouse twice is seen as "jumping through another step"? That's all anyone needs to do.

Blacking/whiting out was offered as another suggestion - but that involves people/posters/reccers etc learning html code in order to post, which I thought was far more complicated than asking them to click their mouse twice.

I was perfectly happy with the system we had - warnings were placed in trailers at the end of a story, but you wouldn't believe the complaints I had about that too - it's too much effort to scroll down for the most part.

I'm not aware that there was any compromise at The Safehouse - as far as I know warnings were always front and centre at the top of a story and above a cut, where no one could avoid them. At CI5hq (and discoveredinalj) we at least put them at the end of a fic so that people could either scroll down to find them or else read the story without being spoiled.

You are always going to have complaints about anything you do as a mod. If when you started

the_safehouse there were specific warnings rules about posting, unless there was some sort of new technology advance to make that rule obsolete, then I would have left things as they were or at least conducted a new poll about the topic, not one that was done nearly 3 years ago.

As I said an LJ cut seemed to me to be the easiest way to compromise about warnings on fic. You could have removed any warnings from the subject line and left the warnings in the body of the post as an even greater compromise for the no spoilers people.

And of people cannot cut and paste this code (see below) for a warning, why would anyone think authors are now going to join another community, post a warning over there, then go back to The_Safehouse and put that link in their story? If people think scrolling & LJ cuts are too much work, I foresee this new policy not working either because it is just not clicking on a link, it requires someone making a post on the spoiler community first, then linking back to

the_safehouse.

To me it just seems easier to join a Pros list that doesn't have these complicated hoops to jump through - which I did.

Warning: (skip (#skip.titleofstory)) Warning text goes here.
()

I think there's some confusion here - I don't mod Safehouse! The issue arose at, and the comm I'm talking about is

ci5hq. But to respond to your points:

it is just not clicking on a link, it requires someone making a post on the spoiler community first, then linking back to the_safehouse.
Yes, but this is the part that would be done by the spoiler community mod (who volunteered to do it when the idea was first mooted) and by those members who are interested in helping her out. The beauty of it is that it doesn't have to be done by the person making the rec/story post - it's down to the spoiler comm to create the spoilers. In other words, those who want them make them. This might be the person who posted the rec/story, but it doesn't have to be - that's entirely up to them. And rather than people complaining that some authors won't include warnings for their stories (eg, I won't), or that warnings weren't provided for older Prosfic, they can simply provide spoilers to the comm themselves.

So authors/reccers only have to cut and paste the header, if that's all they want to do. And people wanting warnings/spoilers only have to click to go to the spoiler comm - once the mod has got it up and running, everything would be smoothly done.

There's advantages to lists and to lj as well, and no doubt in a few years there'll be advantages to the next type of social forum - the world keeps turning, and to be honest I don't think it's worth getting too upset about... As I said above, I thought it worked perfectly well to have warnings etc in a trailer under a cut, but hey-ho!

Well, I'm sorry to hear this - and surprised to hear so many sudden opinions on the topic, as the question was raised several times to elicit member's opinions before deciding to make the change. The discussions etc are:
18th May 2010 (http://community.livejournal.com/ci5hq/132122.html) (post that raised the issue yet again)
18th May 2010 (http://community.livejournal.com/ci5hq/132602.html) (comments closed as I was away, but you could certainly have emailed me about it all)
27th May 2010 (http://community.livejournal.com/ci5hq/133524.html)
31st May 2010 (http://community.livejournal.com/ci5hq/133814.html)

There were additional discussions:
22nd August 2007 (http://community.livejournal.com/ci5hq/36087.html) (the poll that you mention)
24th August 2007 (http://community.livejournal.com/ci5hq/36787.html)
26th February 2009 (http://community.livejournal.com/ci5hq/81137.html)
27th June 2009 (http://community.livejournal.com/ci5hq/102772.html)

You didn't participate in any of these discussions, nor did you offer an opinion by simply clicking on the poll you quote back in 2007, nor have you ever contacted me privately about these things. I'm afraid I was under the impression that it wasn't an issue that interested you.

You additionally did email me a few years ago, when I was was contacting you and the other co-mod re: every suggested change I was making at CI5hq, and said that I didn't need to do so in the future unless it was some major change - you trusted my judgement. You could certainly argue that changing the policy on spoilers is a major change - but as I've said, your apparent disinterest in the subject made me feel more as if you wouldn't see it that way.

You've rather misinterpreted the poll, by the way - 2/35 (5.7%) people said they wanted no information at all, but actually 13/35 (37%) people said they didn't need to know about "distressing content" (ie, "warnings") - a not inconsiderable proportion, and I think it's reasonable to cater to those people as well as those who do want warnings.

teaandswissroll I believe insists on all warnings being up front in the header where everyone is forced to see them, so you may well be happier there if that's what you require. But again I am surprised to see that you feel so strongly about it, since you've never expressed these opinions in posts where we've asked for them, or to me as a co-mod.

I'm sorry you're confused by the proposed system - perhaps it wasn't explained clearly, but I do wish you'd asked at the time rather than afterwards. The author of a story doesn't have to do anything, if they don't want to. It's entirely up to people who want spoilers to put that information up at Prosficspoilers - whether it's the mod herself or members of the comm, or an author if they wish to do so. This means that people who believe in spoilers can work together to find/create them for a fic, and those who don't believe in them aren't forced to include them if they want to participate in the comm (eg, as they are at Teaandswissroll). This is all about finding a compromise, not forcing a single belief on anyone who takes part in the comm. There will be a time lag as the spoiler comm starts out, but the more people help out, then the smaller that lag will be.

and do not impose arbitrary, unworkable, or unnecessary rules.
As with anything, there's more than one opinion about what is arbitrary, unworkable or unnecessary - and perhaps the time to have mentioned your issues with my (active) modding of this comm was any time since its creation in 2006? I would have welcomed some input from my co-mods, I appreciated that "real life" prevented them from doing so - but considering you've never objected in any way to what I've done so far, you'll excuse me for being somewhat surprised at your vehemence in this post.

I note the number of comments you're receiving in agreement about the new policy - but again I note that very few of those people contributed to any of the recent posts about warnings or even to other posts and discussions at CI5hq, which I'm sorry about. It was always a public discussion, in which opinions were solicited and welcomed. A comm is only what its members make of it - things have been decided via comments made by those members who cared enough to participate.

I'm sorry you felt you had to do this, I really am. I was in Pros when

ci5hq got off the ground and I know how problematic the rules application at

the_safehouse was at the time (not any more). I realise that the idea for the spoiler comm was floated just before MediaWest, which meant that your already limited time was even more limited, so you probably didn't pick up on it until much later. And although I never thought that the linking to

prosficspoilers was compulsory for

ci5hq I can see how people might have interpreted it that way, especially since

the_safehouse has asked people to use it rather than posting warnings to the comm.

However it does strike me that (what I referred to in one of my comments as a shakedown cruise (http://community.livejournal.com/ci5hq/133524.html?thread=2313364#t2313364)) is still a time for discussion and fine-tuning of a concept. Heck, anything can be changed if it turns out to be unworkable.

On the co-modding issue I'm only going to say that you've both spoken about it and I can see points both ways.

I removed myself from various Pros communities a while ago for a very solid reason, so wasn't aware of this. However, I can quite see why you have taken this decision.

The idea what you cannot post information about the story on the said story, but have to link to another community is simply not, IMO, workable, nor something I would do.

I'm sorry that Pros here on LJ appears to conform to what I was told about Pros fandom before I got into it. Thank you for the heads up about

the_safehouse, I wasn't aware of the change there :-( And thank you for the link to

teaandswissroll.

I may not be actively involved with Pros that much these days, but I'm so very sad to see this has happened.

I am really sorry to hear this, but I fully understand your reasoning. And I have to say, speaking from my own experience, the kid thing doesn't improve as they get older - they seem to require more of your "free" time than ever as they grow more independent, what with staying up later, after school/out-of-school activities, homework to be done, friends to sleep over with... *g* (Sorry if I shatter any fantasies you are currently harbouring, btw.)

I can honestly say that most of the people on my flist are the ones I want to have there, and I will always consider you to be one of my friends, so I won't be removing you.

*hugs*

I totally agree with your decision. I left the

the_safehouse only a few days ago because they changed the warnings policy. As a reader having to search down potential triggering warnings in another community, is not for me. I liked the previous policy of warnings under a LJ cut. Sorry this happened to you and you had to make this decision.

However, I just joined the community you suggested. Thanks.

Sorry we didn't get to chat more at Media! I hope you had a great time at the con. Big hugs to you and the family.

I'm glad you're making the right decision for you, I'm totally coming from outside of course but it really seems like the right answer. I hope it leads to less stress and more joy for you, you have done so much for Pros fandom and are a big part of the joy I find in it. *hugs*

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

ci5hq Resignation

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject